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Windows refunds have focused on laptops, but I think more fertile ground is to be found in desktop systems. Removing the OS can void the warranty, which is valuable to a laptop but not to a desktop. Further, the OS as a percent of the purchase price is much higher on a laptop than a desktop. Thus, you getter a better percentage savings. Get a doorbuster deal on a desktop, then return the OS for even larger savings.

I think it is good for us to pursue Windows refunds on every single system purchased, as you can get it below cost if you do it right. While MS doesn’t directly pay, they pay indirectly. It is their license which forces the manufacturer to refund the money. Thus, by enough of us getting refunds, it will encourage the manufacturers to offer Linux as an option, where they will not have to deal with a refund. The reality is that half an hour of your complaint going through legal will cost the manufacturer far more than any rebate. By driving up transaction costs for Windows computers it changes what manufacturers are willing to pay for Windows.

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Are you serious? Acer PAYS Microsoft for EVERY copy of windows it intsalls. Installing Linux takes the same amount of resources, but does NOT include that licensing fee.

Since all they are really doing anyway is mirroring a hard drive with a working copy, their "cost" to do this would be having on hand an extra hard drive preloaded with Linux.

The ENTIRE point of returning the operating system to the manufacturer is to avoid the M$ tax, to avoid M$ gaining from your transaction.

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yeah that’s what Acer provided it as. I’ll throw a PDF up shortly.

by Seopher on Sunday 25th of March 2007 at 11:37

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On the other hand, though - it is their product. They should be able to bundle it however they please. If you are not happy about the product, go somewhere else. However, if this approach is adopted without letting the Vendors know, then nothing is achieved, is it?

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The title is a bit misleading - as many have noted. Acer isn’t charging you more. You’re opting for a service that involves YOU paying for shipping both ways.

So, Acer IS really giving back the value is pays for a Windows OEM license. What it is not doing is providing you free shipping for a non-standard support task.

Try to be fair and avoid sensationalist titles.

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Acer is just a cheap, lame laptop vendor. In my opinion, more serious and more professional vendor like Dell can fulfill your wish. I heard they are thinking of shipping Linux preloaded boxes soon. Good thing!

by Thomas on Wednesday 21st of March 2007 at 23:25

I think the car analogies are kind of missing the point... if 95% of cars were manufactured with Dunlop tyres as standard, and you wanted Bridgestone tyres - that would be an appropriate analogy!

Microsoft’s actions with OEM distributions are anti-competitive, and designed to keep a hold on their near-monopoly.

I recently bought an Acer laptop, and they refused to sell it without Windows. It’s now happily running Kubuntu, but I’m certainly not happy that my money went to pay Microsoft for something I never wanted.

by Chad on Wednesday 21st of March 2007 at 23:25

Sorry -- I meant to say, fill out the form (as much as you can) before Acer ships YOU the laptop. Inform them that shipping it with software means that they understand that you are bound by nothing other than copyright laws in terms of what you do with that software and that any shrink-wrap EULA will be null and void.

by Stephen Samuel on Wednesday 21st of March 2007 at 18:08

Try filling out the form BEFORE you ship the laptop to Acer, and have them remove the software after it’s yours, and before they ship it. At that point, all they have to do is ship it to you as they originally would have.

Also send them a second cover letter informing them that if there is any software which requires you to agree with any conditions beyond the legalities of copyright, you are pre-emptively refusing the license and requesting a refund for that software.

The other thing you can do is sue them for tying Windows to the laptop because they are NOT offering to sell you a laptop without Windows, they are selling you a laptop WITH windows, and then forcing you to go through the time and expense of refusing the onerous EULA.

Of course, there’s also the predecessor’s comment that the laptop you’re considering doesn’t support Linux, so you might as well just go buy from Dell HP, or somewhere else that DOES sell a linux-capable laptop.

by Stephen Samuel on Wednesday 21st of March 2007 at 18:05

How about selling the unnecessary Windows copy to someone?

by bora on Wednesday 21st of March 2007 at 18:03

Maybe buy a DELL? I’m very, very happy with my Inspiron 9400 Core Duo and a ATI x1400.

Works on Kubuntu 6.06 and higher with Beryl.

WOW ...... Kubutu rocks!!!!

by MoiTju on Wednesday 21st of March 2007 at 11:39

If you wanted to buy a car but wanted it without the standard parts it would cost you more. This is exactly what you’re doing.

It cost you more because you are requesting something that Acer doesn’t consider to be a ’standard’ modification. Acer computers have pre-imaged drives with Vista/XP and they have liscense agreements with MSFT to get better deals on the OS.

In car terms, you can’t buy a car without power-windows and radios anymore either. By having standard features it lowers the overall price. This means less choice for you but an overall lower priced computer.

by Greg on Wednesday 21st of March 2007 at 11:08

The whole point of a Windows refund is to avoid the Microsoft tax if you are not going to run Windows. However, even if an OEM will give you some kind of credit for Windows (whether it turns out a net positive or negative), Microsoft still does not refund anything to the OEM. So in essence Microsoft still gets their cut.

A better solution is to buy the computer with Windows installed. Make sure you buy a system that gives you CDs for reinstallation (I believe the Home versions no longer include recovery CDs). Next, be sure to start up the machine with a distro that will allow you to reformat the disk without ever booting Windows in any form or fashion. Reformat the hard drive, install Linux or BSD or whatever.

Next, sell your recovery CDs on ebay, Google, some BBS, whatever. Since you haven’t agreed to the shrink wrap license and never run the program, you cannot be held to any terms in the license, including the "can’t sell this copy to someone else" provision. Be sure to tell the buyer that the disks are OEM for a particular computer (so they can stay somewhat legit). Make some number of Euros, live happily ever after. Microsoft still gets their cut but you don’t pay them, your OEM of choice doesn’t get screwed, and Microsoft (maybe) loses a sale for the replacement copy of Windows someone bought from you.

by David on Wednesday 21st of March 2007 at 10:57

It seems a bit naive to assume that just because Linux is free it should cost less to put it on a laptop. Acer mass-produce laptops with Windows installed because thats what the market wants. It DOES cost them money to take one of these laptops and get someone to take it out of the production line, reformat it or do whatever else is necessary.

Its simple mass-market production. If you go to ford and ask them to sell you a car with a cheaper stereo, don’t expect the car to be cheaper. They have to go out of their way, using manpower and equipment, to change it to your preference.

So, clearly they incur a cost in doing this...

by am on Wednesday 21st of March 2007 at 10:00

Is there some reason you can’t merely format the laptop yourself to remove Windows? ATi drivers do, in fact, exist for Linux. It’s becoming more popular and better developed, especially now with AMD on the team. If you build your own Gentoo install, or something like that, it might be a lot easier to find and set up those drivers than if you’re using Ubuntu, but I will say that I have a friend with an Acer who -is- using Ubuntu on his laptop, and it uses ATi graphics.

Still, just format the drive yourself with the tools on the disc. It’s really not that hard. If you have to get all in a bundle because they won’t sell you the laptop at a discount because they don’t have the bloatware on it paying them, then get a "shell" laptop, CPU, maybe GPU, hard drive, and RAM, and use that. But it’s much more expensive on that route than just sucking it up, buying it with Windows, and formatting it yourself.

by Rinyre on Wednesday 21st of March 2007 at 09:24

reading some of the comments on Digg I feel it’s important to state that I’m not interested in getting the vendor to uninstall Windows because I’m unable to - far from it. It’s because I feel it’s my right as a consumer to be refunded for things I won’t use.

You wouldn’t buy a new car from a dealership with a Sat-Nav system you wouldn’t ever use, would you? You’d request a model without that installed.

Such is my view anyway.

by Seopher on Wednesday 21st of March 2007 at 09:09

Well, think about it... OEMs like Acer make various deals with software companies to put their "shovelware" on systems for a fee. (RealPlayer and the Google Toolbar are just a couple examples.) It may cost Acer MORE to sell you a PC without Windows (and, hence, without the shovelware) when all this payola is taken into account.

by Nobody on Wednesday 21st of March 2007 at 08:38

Found this from Digg and it’s very interesting! I’m sure an American guy had the exact same problem, so he took digital pictures of everything he received. He then took pictures of his screen as windows was installing for the first time. When it came to accepting the agreement, he simply said NO, took a picture of it, then formatted the machine.

Sending the key, cd, and all the pictures back to the company seemed to do the trick for him. Of course, that’s America... our society is perhaps a bit more rubbish.

by Stuart on Wednesday 21st of March 2007 at 08:38

Ben, I work with Mandriva and I’m quite interested in hardware support. Could you send me the PCI ID of the chip? If you get it to me fast it may be possible to have it supported in Mandriva 2007.1. Please mail to awilliamson A T mandriva D O T com. Thanks.

(sorry for the off-topic-ness.)

by AdamW on Tuesday 20th of March 2007 at 20:39

Here’s another solution, if you used a credit card.

Ship back all of the CD’s, including Windows Whatever, Norton Whatever, etc. Call your credit card company and issue a chargeback for the FULL RETAIL value of whatever Windows OS, Norton Whatever, etc. that the computer came with. Most credit card companies are in favor of the purchaser with chargeback requests, and the vendor really has to have a super-solid case to win. All you’ve got to do is give your credit card company some ammo.

Include the following items:

1.) The MS Windows EULA, which specifies that you can get a full refund. Highlight that portion (circle it or whatever).
2.) The receipt for your purchase.
3.) Pictures in any computer retail store showing the actual retail prices for these software packages (Windows Whatever, Norton Whatever, etc.).
4.) The entire spec sheet for your computer and what it came with, to prove to the credit card company that these were indeed shipped with the computer (and thus you were charged for them!).
5.) A signed declaration that you have shipped this software back to Acer.
6.) Pictures of the CD’s going into the box you will use ship it back.
7.) A receipt for the shipment of those CD’s back to Acer’s Plymouth Centre.
8.) Proof showing that your package of CD’s was in fact delivered and received by Acer.

Now, *that* will get Acer’s attention, as they are no longer fighting you. They’re now fighting a bank...and Acer *will* lose that one. I’ve done three chargebacks so far, and I’ve won every single one.

--SYG

by Sum Yung Gai on Tuesday 20th of March 2007 at 19:03

Microsoft is paying Acer money.
The vendor (Acer) is now responsible for support and not Microsoft.
So, they don’t get $ from Microsoft. You pay!

by maba on Tuesday 20th of March 2007 at 16:51

Good advice there from rysiek there. ATi and Linux != go together

by Harpo on Tuesday 20th of March 2007 at 14:49

On digg too:
http://www.digg.com/linux_unix/Acer_want_p50_more_for_a_Laptop_that_has_Windows_Vista_removed

by Harpo on Tuesday 20th of March 2007 at 14:49

just a wee bit o’ advice

when buying a laptop (or any other box, actually) to home Linux, do *NOT*, under *ANY* circumstances WHATSOEVER buy *ANYTHING* that has "Ati" on it. never.

and I mean *NEVER* never.

Ati has a looong history of failing to get the Linux drivers for any of its products right. you either use an OpenSource driver (and don’t have to use the hardware to it’s full potential), or you use Ati’s binary driver - and experience lockdowns, crashes and alike, and all that after long and painful installation...

for graphic cards go nvidia. definitely. they have decent drivers with quite a working installer that won’t actually b0rk your system - and their binary drivers support AiGLX, so no fscking with XGL and etc.

I myself am after two months(!!) of repeated tries to get an Ati (x700) card to work with beryl... done it, finally, but hope never having to do this again...

oh, and one more thing: here in Poland we have quite a few companies that ship Windows-less laptops, even with Linux pre-installed. Fancy that. :)

cheerio
rysiek

by rysiek on Tuesday 20th of March 2007 at 14:06

Thanks for the tip Ben. I was just using it as an example but it looks like I now have two valid reasons for not buying an Acer for Linux purposes!

by Seopher on Tuesday 20th of March 2007 at 13:41

From personal experience I wouldn’t recommend putting a linux distro on this laptop. The majority of Acer laptops (I have a very recent model myself) use an Ati IPX SBXXX (SB450 in my case) sound chip. I have yet to find a current Linux distro that supports this hardware out of the box. I have also yet to find a sound driver that works.

I have also spent many wasted hours in the Ubuntu/Fedora/Suse/Mandriva forums trying to find a seemingly none-existant solution. And sadly, so have many other people.

by Ben on Tuesday 20th of March 2007 at 13:39