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I’m going to keep it simple. I just bought and am waiting for delivery of, an Acer notebook from SamsClub. It has similar specs to Apple’s entry-level notebook, for $400 less. I plan on registering Windows and the computer, and whatever else I need to do to get the system up and running. Then, I am going to use Vista’s System Restore/Backup feature whereby you use 2 or 3 DVD+R’s and put it all on them. Then, when I am confident I can do a full system restore, I’ll put in my Linspire CD and let it format the drive and install itself as the only OS. And if that doesn’t work, or I get bored with it, I’ll install Apple’s latest OS and see if it runs on the thing. I am not at all happy that it is so much work, and often more expensive, to find and buy a computer without Windows, but at least there are options. Like people who buy cars and ’tune’ them by altering or even replacing the engine, seats, etc. They still gotta pay Honda, Toyota, whoever, but they can modify it all they want once they own it.
Windows refunds have focused on laptops, but I think more fertile ground is to be found in desktop systems. Removing the OS can void the warranty, which is valuable to a laptop but not to a desktop. Further, the OS as a percent of the purchase price is much higher on a laptop than a desktop. Thus, you getter a better percentage savings. Get a doorbuster deal on a desktop, then return the OS for even larger savings.
I think it is good for us to pursue Windows refunds on every single system purchased, as you can get it below cost if you do it right. While MS doesn’t directly pay, they pay indirectly. It is their license which forces the manufacturer to refund the money. Thus, by enough of us getting refunds, it will encourage the manufacturers to offer Linux as an option, where they will not have to deal with a refund. The reality is that half an hour of your complaint going through legal will cost the manufacturer far more than any rebate. By driving up transaction costs for Windows computers it changes what manufacturers are willing to pay for Windows.
I think it is good for us to pursue Windows refunds on every single system purchased, as you can get it below cost if you do it right. While MS doesn’t directly pay, they pay indirectly. It is their license which forces the manufacturer to refund the money. Thus, by enough of us getting refunds, it will encourage the manufacturers to offer Linux as an option, where they will not have to deal with a refund. The reality is that half an hour of your complaint going through legal will cost the manufacturer far more than any rebate. By driving up transaction costs for Windows computers it changes what manufacturers are willing to pay for Windows.
Here is another option to avoid this completely. There are companies such as Systemax that will sell a laptop with No OS installed at purchase. That way you don’t pay any extra for something you don’t want. Here is one example http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2954315&Tab=2&NoMapp=0
"It seems a bit naive to assume that just because Linux is free it should cost less to put it on a laptop"
Are you serious? Acer PAYS Microsoft for EVERY copy of windows it intsalls. Installing Linux takes the same amount of resources, but does NOT include that licensing fee.
Since all they are really doing anyway is mirroring a hard drive with a working copy, their "cost" to do this would be having on hand an extra hard drive preloaded with Linux.
The ENTIRE point of returning the operating system to the manufacturer is to avoid the M$ tax, to avoid M$ gaining from your transaction.
Are you serious? Acer PAYS Microsoft for EVERY copy of windows it intsalls. Installing Linux takes the same amount of resources, but does NOT include that licensing fee.
Since all they are really doing anyway is mirroring a hard drive with a working copy, their "cost" to do this would be having on hand an extra hard drive preloaded with Linux.
The ENTIRE point of returning the operating system to the manufacturer is to avoid the M$ tax, to avoid M$ gaining from your transaction.
Windows .doc file? That’s most surprising. Not on my machine! Too bad there aren’t any Linux tools to easily convert this into .pdf or some open format...
Full support from Istanbul, Turkey in my tiny blog:
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I agree with the author that the supplier need not assume that all laptops WILL
run a certain operating system, and then have the consumer take the time and trouble
to correct this.
On the other hand, though - it is their product. They should be able to bundle it however they please. If you are not happy about the product, go somewhere else. However, if this approach is adopted without letting the Vendors know, then nothing is achieved, is it?
run a certain operating system, and then have the consumer take the time and trouble
to correct this.
On the other hand, though - it is their product. They should be able to bundle it however they please. If you are not happy about the product, go somewhere else. However, if this approach is adopted without letting the Vendors know, then nothing is achieved, is it?
Acer had already paid M$ for the software you didn’t want so they couldn’t refund its cost without going broke. What they probably offered you was their profit for installing the software.
Check out the HP web site, they have a number of models that can be purchased with OpenDos installed. Check and see if this applies outside of North America.
G.Fernendes obviously doesn’t get it. If you don’t want Windows, there is no way you can avoid purchasing it from Acer. Acer’s fees are to REMOVE the Windows they sold you, which you did not want from the beginning and for which they "kindly" offer you a form to remove, but will not pay the warranty-related costs of removal.
This is called bundling, and IBM lost such a case in the USA a three decades ago when they attempted to link purchases of their mainframe operating system to their mainframe hardware. What Acer is doing is a reversal of IBM’s bundle (IBM required you to purchase their hardware to purchase the operating system; Acer requires you to purchase Windows OSin order to purchase their hardware), but it is the exact same concept which IBM was forced to discontinue.
Acer makes no claim that their hardware will not work if you do not buy windows -- that was the burden of proof in the IBM case as well (IBM’s mainframe OS ran quite nicely on Amdahl, Fujitsu, and Toshiba mainframes, which is why IBM lost -- their hardware was not required for the proper functioning of the OS -- just hardware which performed the same instruction set).
I note that IBM did not have a monopoly on computers, just as Acer does not have a monopoly on x86 laptops. That didn’t stop IBM’s kiester from being hauled into court.
I don’t know British law, but you guys might want to scan the literature for similar bundling cases in your court system. It seems that the act of bundling an unneeded, costly, and undesired component harms the buyer. The EC courts seem to have problems with Microsoft bundling other components into its OS -- perhaps they would have similar problems with Acer’s position. My technique would be to boot windows, refuse the license, and then, when the laptop fails to operate properly for me, send it in for service. Acer could probably get around that by requiring you to accept the windows license as a condition of purchase, but, as is obvious at present, they do not.
My solution was to buy an HP DV9000 series computer; it has two hard drives inside, one of which is unused except for being formatted NTFS. I installed Fedora Core 6 on the second hard drive (just completely blew away its nonexistent content), and Grub happily boots either OS; with Zen, I also have the possibility (which I haven’t used) of running Windows underneath Zen. Of course, my situation is slightly different -- I need Photoshop CS2 in my normal work.
This is called bundling, and IBM lost such a case in the USA a three decades ago when they attempted to link purchases of their mainframe operating system to their mainframe hardware. What Acer is doing is a reversal of IBM’s bundle (IBM required you to purchase their hardware to purchase the operating system; Acer requires you to purchase Windows OSin order to purchase their hardware), but it is the exact same concept which IBM was forced to discontinue.
Acer makes no claim that their hardware will not work if you do not buy windows -- that was the burden of proof in the IBM case as well (IBM’s mainframe OS ran quite nicely on Amdahl, Fujitsu, and Toshiba mainframes, which is why IBM lost -- their hardware was not required for the proper functioning of the OS -- just hardware which performed the same instruction set).
I note that IBM did not have a monopoly on computers, just as Acer does not have a monopoly on x86 laptops. That didn’t stop IBM’s kiester from being hauled into court.
I don’t know British law, but you guys might want to scan the literature for similar bundling cases in your court system. It seems that the act of bundling an unneeded, costly, and undesired component harms the buyer. The EC courts seem to have problems with Microsoft bundling other components into its OS -- perhaps they would have similar problems with Acer’s position. My technique would be to boot windows, refuse the license, and then, when the laptop fails to operate properly for me, send it in for service. Acer could probably get around that by requiring you to accept the windows license as a condition of purchase, but, as is obvious at present, they do not.
My solution was to buy an HP DV9000 series computer; it has two hard drives inside, one of which is unused except for being formatted NTFS. I installed Fedora Core 6 on the second hard drive (just completely blew away its nonexistent content), and Grub happily boots either OS; with Zen, I also have the possibility (which I haven’t used) of running Windows underneath Zen. Of course, my situation is slightly different -- I need Photoshop CS2 in my normal work.
dfasdasdasd
The title is a bit misleading - as many have noted. Acer isn’t charging you more. You’re opting for a service that involves YOU paying for shipping both ways.
So, Acer IS really giving back the value is pays for a Windows OEM license. What it is not doing is providing you free shipping for a non-standard support task.
Try to be fair and avoid sensationalist titles.
So, Acer IS really giving back the value is pays for a Windows OEM license. What it is not doing is providing you free shipping for a non-standard support task.
Try to be fair and avoid sensationalist titles.
There are people who will sell you an OS free laptop in the UK. Novatech is one, but
not the only one. I can’t vouch for the products but they’ve been around awhile and
I have found them a good parts supplier. They also sell you decktops OS free. I live in
hope they, and others will supply with linux installed one day.
Richard.
not the only one. I can’t vouch for the products but they’ve been around awhile and
I have found them a good parts supplier. They also sell you decktops OS free. I live in
hope they, and others will supply with linux installed one day.
Richard.
Acer is just a cheap, lame laptop vendor. In my opinion, more serious and more professional vendor like Dell can fulfill your wish. I heard they are thinking of shipping Linux preloaded boxes soon. Good thing!
I think the car analogies are kind of missing the point... if 95% of cars were manufactured with Dunlop tyres as standard, and you wanted Bridgestone tyres - that would be an appropriate analogy!
Microsoft’s actions with OEM distributions are anti-competitive, and designed to keep a hold on their near-monopoly.
I recently bought an Acer laptop, and they refused to sell it without Windows. It’s now happily running Kubuntu, but I’m certainly not happy that my money went to pay Microsoft for something I never wanted.
Microsoft’s actions with OEM distributions are anti-competitive, and designed to keep a hold on their near-monopoly.
I recently bought an Acer laptop, and they refused to sell it without Windows. It’s now happily running Kubuntu, but I’m certainly not happy that my money went to pay Microsoft for something I never wanted.
Sorry -- I meant to say, fill out the form (as much as you can) before Acer ships YOU the laptop. Inform them that shipping it with software means that they understand that you are bound by nothing other than copyright laws in terms of what you do with that software and that any shrink-wrap EULA will be null and void.
Try filling out the form BEFORE you ship the laptop to Acer, and have them remove the software after it’s yours, and before they ship it. At that point, all they have to do is ship it to you as they originally would have.
Also send them a second cover letter informing them that if there is any software which requires you to agree with any conditions beyond the legalities of copyright, you are pre-emptively refusing the license and requesting a refund for that software.
The other thing you can do is sue them for tying Windows to the laptop because they are NOT offering to sell you a laptop without Windows, they are selling you a laptop WITH windows, and then forcing you to go through the time and expense of refusing the onerous EULA.
Of course, there’s also the predecessor’s comment that the laptop you’re considering doesn’t support Linux, so you might as well just go buy from Dell HP, or somewhere else that DOES sell a linux-capable laptop.
Also send them a second cover letter informing them that if there is any software which requires you to agree with any conditions beyond the legalities of copyright, you are pre-emptively refusing the license and requesting a refund for that software.
The other thing you can do is sue them for tying Windows to the laptop because they are NOT offering to sell you a laptop without Windows, they are selling you a laptop WITH windows, and then forcing you to go through the time and expense of refusing the onerous EULA.
Of course, there’s also the predecessor’s comment that the laptop you’re considering doesn’t support Linux, so you might as well just go buy from Dell HP, or somewhere else that DOES sell a linux-capable laptop.
How about selling the unnecessary Windows copy to someone?
Maybe buy a DELL? I’m very, very happy with my Inspiron 9400 Core Duo and a ATI x1400.
Works on Kubuntu 6.06 and higher with Beryl.
WOW ...... Kubutu rocks!!!!
Works on Kubuntu 6.06 and higher with Beryl.
WOW ...... Kubutu rocks!!!!
If you wanted to buy a car but wanted it without the standard parts it would cost you more. This is exactly what you’re doing.
It cost you more because you are requesting something that Acer doesn’t consider to be a ’standard’ modification. Acer computers have pre-imaged drives with Vista/XP and they have liscense agreements with MSFT to get better deals on the OS.
In car terms, you can’t buy a car without power-windows and radios anymore either. By having standard features it lowers the overall price. This means less choice for you but an overall lower priced computer.
It cost you more because you are requesting something that Acer doesn’t consider to be a ’standard’ modification. Acer computers have pre-imaged drives with Vista/XP and they have liscense agreements with MSFT to get better deals on the OS.
In car terms, you can’t buy a car without power-windows and radios anymore either. By having standard features it lowers the overall price. This means less choice for you but an overall lower priced computer.
The whole point of a Windows refund is to avoid the Microsoft tax if you are not going to run Windows. However, even if an OEM will give you some kind of credit for Windows (whether it turns out a net positive or negative), Microsoft still does not refund anything to the OEM. So in essence Microsoft still gets their cut.
A better solution is to buy the computer with Windows installed. Make sure you buy a system that gives you CDs for reinstallation (I believe the Home versions no longer include recovery CDs). Next, be sure to start up the machine with a distro that will allow you to reformat the disk without ever booting Windows in any form or fashion. Reformat the hard drive, install Linux or BSD or whatever.
Next, sell your recovery CDs on ebay, Google, some BBS, whatever. Since you haven’t agreed to the shrink wrap license and never run the program, you cannot be held to any terms in the license, including the "can’t sell this copy to someone else" provision. Be sure to tell the buyer that the disks are OEM for a particular computer (so they can stay somewhat legit). Make some number of Euros, live happily ever after. Microsoft still gets their cut but you don’t pay them, your OEM of choice doesn’t get screwed, and Microsoft (maybe) loses a sale for the replacement copy of Windows someone bought from you.
A better solution is to buy the computer with Windows installed. Make sure you buy a system that gives you CDs for reinstallation (I believe the Home versions no longer include recovery CDs). Next, be sure to start up the machine with a distro that will allow you to reformat the disk without ever booting Windows in any form or fashion. Reformat the hard drive, install Linux or BSD or whatever.
Next, sell your recovery CDs on ebay, Google, some BBS, whatever. Since you haven’t agreed to the shrink wrap license and never run the program, you cannot be held to any terms in the license, including the "can’t sell this copy to someone else" provision. Be sure to tell the buyer that the disks are OEM for a particular computer (so they can stay somewhat legit). Make some number of Euros, live happily ever after. Microsoft still gets their cut but you don’t pay them, your OEM of choice doesn’t get screwed, and Microsoft (maybe) loses a sale for the replacement copy of Windows someone bought from you.
It seems a bit naive to assume that just because Linux is free it should cost less to put it on a laptop. Acer mass-produce laptops with Windows installed because thats what the market wants. It DOES cost them money to take one of these laptops and get someone to take it out of the production line, reformat it or do whatever else is necessary.
Its simple mass-market production. If you go to ford and ask them to sell you a car with a cheaper stereo, don’t expect the car to be cheaper. They have to go out of their way, using manpower and equipment, to change it to your preference.
So, clearly they incur a cost in doing this...
Its simple mass-market production. If you go to ford and ask them to sell you a car with a cheaper stereo, don’t expect the car to be cheaper. They have to go out of their way, using manpower and equipment, to change it to your preference.
So, clearly they incur a cost in doing this...
Is there some reason you can’t merely format the laptop yourself to remove Windows? ATi drivers do, in fact, exist for Linux. It’s becoming more popular and better developed, especially now with AMD on the team. If you build your own Gentoo install, or something like that, it might be a lot easier to find and set up those drivers than if you’re using Ubuntu, but I will say that I have a friend with an Acer who -is- using Ubuntu on his laptop, and it uses ATi graphics.
Still, just format the drive yourself with the tools on the disc. It’s really not that hard. If you have to get all in a bundle because they won’t sell you the laptop at a discount because they don’t have the bloatware on it paying them, then get a "shell" laptop, CPU, maybe GPU, hard drive, and RAM, and use that. But it’s much more expensive on that route than just sucking it up, buying it with Windows, and formatting it yourself.
Still, just format the drive yourself with the tools on the disc. It’s really not that hard. If you have to get all in a bundle because they won’t sell you the laptop at a discount because they don’t have the bloatware on it paying them, then get a "shell" laptop, CPU, maybe GPU, hard drive, and RAM, and use that. But it’s much more expensive on that route than just sucking it up, buying it with Windows, and formatting it yourself.
AUTHOR COMMENT
reading some of the comments on Digg I feel it’s important to state that I’m not interested in getting the vendor to uninstall Windows because I’m unable to - far from it. It’s because I feel it’s my right as a consumer to be refunded for things I won’t use.
You wouldn’t buy a new car from a dealership with a Sat-Nav system you wouldn’t ever use, would you? You’d request a model without that installed.
Such is my view anyway.
reading some of the comments on Digg I feel it’s important to state that I’m not interested in getting the vendor to uninstall Windows because I’m unable to - far from it. It’s because I feel it’s my right as a consumer to be refunded for things I won’t use.
You wouldn’t buy a new car from a dealership with a Sat-Nav system you wouldn’t ever use, would you? You’d request a model without that installed.
Such is my view anyway.
Well, think about it... OEMs like Acer make various deals with software companies to put their "shovelware" on systems for a fee. (RealPlayer and the Google Toolbar are just a couple examples.) It may cost Acer MORE to sell you a PC without Windows (and, hence, without the shovelware) when all this payola is taken into account.
Found this from Digg and it’s very interesting! I’m sure an American guy had the exact same problem, so he took digital pictures of everything he received. He then took pictures of his screen as windows was installing for the first time. When it came to accepting the agreement, he simply said NO, took a picture of it, then formatted the machine.
Sending the key, cd, and all the pictures back to the company seemed to do the trick for him. Of course, that’s America... our society is perhaps a bit more rubbish.
Sending the key, cd, and all the pictures back to the company seemed to do the trick for him. Of course, that’s America... our society is perhaps a bit more rubbish.
Ben, I work with Mandriva and I’m quite interested in hardware support. Could you send me the PCI ID of the chip? If you get it to me fast it may be possible to have it supported in Mandriva 2007.1. Please mail to awilliamson A T mandriva D O T com. Thanks.
(sorry for the off-topic-ness.)
(sorry for the off-topic-ness.)
Here’s another solution, if you used a credit card.
Ship back all of the CD’s, including Windows Whatever, Norton Whatever, etc. Call your credit card company and issue a chargeback for the FULL RETAIL value of whatever Windows OS, Norton Whatever, etc. that the computer came with. Most credit card companies are in favor of the purchaser with chargeback requests, and the vendor really has to have a super-solid case to win. All you’ve got to do is give your credit card company some ammo.
Include the following items:
1.) The MS Windows EULA, which specifies that you can get a full refund. Highlight that portion (circle it or whatever).
2.) The receipt for your purchase.
3.) Pictures in any computer retail store showing the actual retail prices for these software packages (Windows Whatever, Norton Whatever, etc.).
4.) The entire spec sheet for your computer and what it came with, to prove to the credit card company that these were indeed shipped with the computer (and thus you were charged for them!).
5.) A signed declaration that you have shipped this software back to Acer.
6.) Pictures of the CD’s going into the box you will use ship it back.
7.) A receipt for the shipment of those CD’s back to Acer’s Plymouth Centre.
8.) Proof showing that your package of CD’s was in fact delivered and received by Acer.
Now, *that* will get Acer’s attention, as they are no longer fighting you. They’re now fighting a bank...and Acer *will* lose that one. I’ve done three chargebacks so far, and I’ve won every single one.
--SYG
Ship back all of the CD’s, including Windows Whatever, Norton Whatever, etc. Call your credit card company and issue a chargeback for the FULL RETAIL value of whatever Windows OS, Norton Whatever, etc. that the computer came with. Most credit card companies are in favor of the purchaser with chargeback requests, and the vendor really has to have a super-solid case to win. All you’ve got to do is give your credit card company some ammo.
Include the following items:
1.) The MS Windows EULA, which specifies that you can get a full refund. Highlight that portion (circle it or whatever).
2.) The receipt for your purchase.
3.) Pictures in any computer retail store showing the actual retail prices for these software packages (Windows Whatever, Norton Whatever, etc.).
4.) The entire spec sheet for your computer and what it came with, to prove to the credit card company that these were indeed shipped with the computer (and thus you were charged for them!).
5.) A signed declaration that you have shipped this software back to Acer.
6.) Pictures of the CD’s going into the box you will use ship it back.
7.) A receipt for the shipment of those CD’s back to Acer’s Plymouth Centre.
8.) Proof showing that your package of CD’s was in fact delivered and received by Acer.
Now, *that* will get Acer’s attention, as they are no longer fighting you. They’re now fighting a bank...and Acer *will* lose that one. I’ve done three chargebacks so far, and I’ve won every single one.
--SYG
Microsoft is paying Acer money.
The vendor (Acer) is now responsible for support and not Microsoft.
So, they don’t get $ from Microsoft. You pay!
The vendor (Acer) is now responsible for support and not Microsoft.
So, they don’t get $ from Microsoft. You pay!
Good advice there from rysiek there. ATi and Linux != go together
On digg too:
http://www.digg.com/linux_unix/Acer_want_p50_more_for_a_Laptop_that_has_Windows_Vista_removed
http://www.digg.com/linux_unix/Acer_want_p50_more_for_a_Laptop_that_has_Windows_Vista_removed
just a wee bit o’ advice
when buying a laptop (or any other box, actually) to home Linux, do *NOT*, under *ANY* circumstances WHATSOEVER buy *ANYTHING* that has "Ati" on it. never.
and I mean *NEVER* never.
Ati has a looong history of failing to get the Linux drivers for any of its products right. you either use an OpenSource driver (and don’t have to use the hardware to it’s full potential), or you use Ati’s binary driver - and experience lockdowns, crashes and alike, and all that after long and painful installation...
for graphic cards go nvidia. definitely. they have decent drivers with quite a working installer that won’t actually b0rk your system - and their binary drivers support AiGLX, so no fscking with XGL and etc.
I myself am after two months(!!) of repeated tries to get an Ati (x700) card to work with beryl... done it, finally, but hope never having to do this again...
oh, and one more thing: here in Poland we have quite a few companies that ship Windows-less laptops, even with Linux pre-installed. Fancy that. :)
cheerio
rysiek
when buying a laptop (or any other box, actually) to home Linux, do *NOT*, under *ANY* circumstances WHATSOEVER buy *ANYTHING* that has "Ati" on it. never.
and I mean *NEVER* never.
Ati has a looong history of failing to get the Linux drivers for any of its products right. you either use an OpenSource driver (and don’t have to use the hardware to it’s full potential), or you use Ati’s binary driver - and experience lockdowns, crashes and alike, and all that after long and painful installation...
for graphic cards go nvidia. definitely. they have decent drivers with quite a working installer that won’t actually b0rk your system - and their binary drivers support AiGLX, so no fscking with XGL and etc.
I myself am after two months(!!) of repeated tries to get an Ati (x700) card to work with beryl... done it, finally, but hope never having to do this again...
oh, and one more thing: here in Poland we have quite a few companies that ship Windows-less laptops, even with Linux pre-installed. Fancy that. :)
cheerio
rysiek
AUTHOR COMMENT
Thanks for the tip Ben. I was just using it as an example but it looks like I now have two valid reasons for not buying an Acer for Linux purposes!
Thanks for the tip Ben. I was just using it as an example but it looks like I now have two valid reasons for not buying an Acer for Linux purposes!
From personal experience I wouldn’t recommend putting a linux distro on this laptop. The majority of Acer laptops (I have a very recent model myself) use an Ati IPX SBXXX (SB450 in my case) sound chip. I have yet to find a current Linux distro that supports this hardware out of the box. I have also yet to find a sound driver that works.
I have also spent many wasted hours in the Ubuntu/Fedora/Suse/Mandriva forums trying to find a seemingly none-existant solution. And sadly, so have many other people.
I have also spent many wasted hours in the Ubuntu/Fedora/Suse/Mandriva forums trying to find a seemingly none-existant solution. And sadly, so have many other people.