Posted on Tuesday 20th of March 2007 at 13:20 in Linux

Acer asks for ?50 more for a notebook WITHOUT Windows?

I covered this in an article earlier but felt that it actually needed a proper write-up with further explanation. All I was trying to do was work out whether certain vendors would supply me a sensibly priced laptop without Windows installed - because I want it for testing Linux distros. Today I received a response from Acer that really made me smile.

If you want to have a read of this information yourself then please download the Acer information form and see what you deduce. Update - PDF available here.

Acer won't supply a notebook without Windows, but they will remove it and refund you

"Good news" I thought "I can get a laptop with ?50-60 removed from the price - bargain! Unfortunately I was wrong. I'm going to explain what information they provided to me, explain (with examples) what this actually means in terms of money and I'll also provide a link to download the information form.

What Acer told me

Acer informed me that I could indeed get a Laptop without Windows installed - but what would actually happen is:
1. I buy a laptop
2. Whoever I buy from will ship me the laptop
3. I fill out the form (attached to this article)
4. I pay for shipping to the Acer repair centre
5. They remove Windows
6. They send me a cheque for *VALUE OF OPERATING SYSTEM*
7. I pay for shipping back to my house
8. I pay the cheque into my bank account
9. Smile

Ok so the smarter readers amongst you will have spluttered at points 4 and 7 where I'm responsible for paying for shipping back to the repair centre - which seems to be in Plymouth. I'll discuss the cost of shipping shortly during my example. But first things first...

VALUE OF OPERATING SYSTEM

Acer disclosed the value of the refund as being:
" XP Home, Vista Home Basic and Vista Business = 30 Euro (approximately ?20)
XP Professional, XP Media Centre and Vista Home Premium = 60 Euro (approximately ?40)" which is a slightly odd figure. I'd be amazed if an OEM of XP Home costs the same as an OEM of Vista Home Basic. I'd be even more amazed if they cost ?20. However, it's only when you place it all together in an example that it becomes astonishing.

The Example

To the right we have a sample laptop that I spyed from Ebuyer that costs ?379 (at the time of writing). It weighs roughly 3kg and would be sufficient for my needs.

So say I buy it from Ebuyer, I've spent ?379 (I have a pending free delivery token from Ebuyer). I then decide I want to remove Windows from the machine so I can review various Linux distros on it. So I decide to fill out the form and send it back to Acer.

I live in Cambridge and the Acer repair centre seems to be in Plymouth which is around 280 miles away. I've had a look around and the most sensible shipping is ParcelForce. Using their cheapest service (ParcelForce48 - where goods are delivered within 48 hours) and insurance up to a value of ?500 (to cover the cost of the laptop) brings a one way price of ?24.25

So this means that if I was going to get my Windows refund I'd be spending just shy of ?50 purely to get the machine to them and back - just so I could get ?20 for the pleasure of a Windows-free notebook. But what happens if I wanted a more advanced laptop? If it cost more than ?500 then my shipping insurance would bump the overall price up to around ?70.

Maths

Laptop = ?379
Shipping = ?50 (or ?70)
Refund = +?20
Total = ?409 (or ?429)

So I could spend ?379 for a Laptop with Vista Home Basic that I could then uninstall myself and put Ubuntu in it's place (or whatever I was reviewing) OR I could spend around ?410 for a Laptop that I buy, then spend a week or two without, then get back and THEN install Ubuntu on (or whatever). Excuse me if I don't "do the happy dance" with that one Acer.

Good work - spend more, get less

So I could essentially spend ?30-50 more to get an operating system less than I would receive originally? Somehow I think that the open source community aren't going to be taking up this offer anytime soon...

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Comments

Showing most recent 20 of 35 comments [View all comments]

I’m going to keep it simple. I just bought and am waiting for delivery of, an Acer notebook from SamsClub. It has similar specs to Apple’s entry-level notebook, for $400 less. I plan on registering Windows and the computer, and whatever else I need to do to get the system up and running. Then, I am going to use Vista’s System Restore/Backup feature whereby you use 2 or 3 DVD+R’s and put it all on them. Then, when I am confident I can do a full system restore, I’ll put in my Linspire CD and let it format the drive and install itself as the only OS. And if that doesn’t work, or I get bored with it, I’ll install Apple’s latest OS and see if it runs on the thing. I am not at all happy that it is so much work, and often more expensive, to find and buy a computer without Windows, but at least there are options. Like people who buy cars and ’tune’ them by altering or even replacing the engine, seats, etc. They still gotta pay Honda, Toyota, whoever, but they can modify it all they want once they own it.

Eric S.

Windows refunds have focused on laptops, but I think more fertile ground is to be found in desktop systems. Removing the OS can void the warranty, which is valuable to a laptop but not to a desktop. Further, the OS as a percent of the purchase price is much higher on a laptop than a desktop. Thus, you getter a better percentage savings. Get a doorbuster deal on a desktop, then return the OS for even larger savings.

I think it is good for us to pursue Windows refunds on every single system purchased, as you can get it below cost if you do it right. While MS doesn’t directly pay, they pay indirectly. It is their license which forces the manufacturer to refund the money. Thus, by enough of us getting refunds, it will encourage the manufacturers to offer Linux as an option, where they will not have to deal with a refund. The reality is that half an hour of your complaint going through legal will cost the manufacturer far more than any rebate. By driving up transaction costs for Windows computers it changes what manufacturers are willing to pay for Windows.

Matt

Here is another option to avoid this completely. There are companies such as Systemax that will sell a laptop with No OS installed at purchase. That way you don’t pay any extra for something you don’t want. Here is one example http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2954315&Tab=2&NoMapp=0

SilverDemon

"It seems a bit naive to assume that just because Linux is free it should cost less to put it on a laptop"

Are you serious? Acer PAYS Microsoft for EVERY copy of windows it intsalls. Installing Linux takes the same amount of resources, but does NOT include that licensing fee.

Since all they are really doing anyway is mirroring a hard drive with a working copy, their "cost" to do this would be having on hand an extra hard drive preloaded with Linux.

The ENTIRE point of returning the operating system to the manufacturer is to avoid the M$ tax, to avoid M$ gaining from your transaction.

Dave

AUTHOR COMMENT
> .doc file

yeah that’s what Acer provided it as. I’ll throw a PDF up shortly.

Seopher

Windows .doc file? That’s most surprising. Not on my machine! Too bad there aren’t any Linux tools to easily convert this into .pdf or some open format...

ian

Full support from Istanbul, Turkey in my tiny blog:

http://tolgabalci.blogspot.com/

Tolga

I agree with the author that the supplier need not assume that all laptops WILL
run a certain operating system, and then have the consumer take the time and trouble
to correct this.

On the other hand, though - it is their product. They should be able to bundle it however they please. If you are not happy about the product, go somewhere else. However, if this approach is adopted without letting the Vendors know, then nothing is achieved, is it?

Rain

Acer had already paid M$ for the software you didn’t want so they couldn’t refund its cost without going broke. What they probably offered you was their profit for installing the software.

Bigchris

Check out the HP web site, they have a number of models that can be purchased with OpenDos installed. Check and see if this applies outside of North America.

Tom

G.Fernendes obviously doesn’t get it. If you don’t want Windows, there is no way you can avoid purchasing it from Acer. Acer’s fees are to REMOVE the Windows they sold you, which you did not want from the beginning and for which they "kindly" offer you a form to remove, but will not pay the warranty-related costs of removal.

This is called bundling, and IBM lost such a case in the USA a three decades ago when they attempted to link purchases of their mainframe operating system to their mainframe hardware. What Acer is doing is a reversal of IBM’s bundle (IBM required you to purchase their hardware to purchase the operating system; Acer requires you to purchase Windows OSin order to purchase their hardware), but it is the exact same concept which IBM was forced to discontinue.

Acer makes no claim that their hardware will not work if you do not buy windows -- that was the burden of proof in the IBM case as well (IBM’s mainframe OS ran quite nicely on Amdahl, Fujitsu, and Toshiba mainframes, which is why IBM lost -- their hardware was not required for the proper functioning of the OS -- just hardware which performed the same instruction set).

I note that IBM did not have a monopoly on computers, just as Acer does not have a monopoly on x86 laptops. That didn’t stop IBM’s kiester from being hauled into court.

I don’t know British law, but you guys might want to scan the literature for similar bundling cases in your court system. It seems that the act of bundling an unneeded, costly, and undesired component harms the buyer. The EC courts seem to have problems with Microsoft bundling other components into its OS -- perhaps they would have similar problems with Acer’s position. My technique would be to boot windows, refuse the license, and then, when the laptop fails to operate properly for me, send it in for service. Acer could probably get around that by requiring you to accept the windows license as a condition of purchase, but, as is obvious at present, they do not.

My solution was to buy an HP DV9000 series computer; it has two hard drives inside, one of which is unused except for being formatted NTFS. I installed Fedora Core 6 on the second hard drive (just completely blew away its nonexistent content), and Grub happily boots either OS; with Zen, I also have the possibility (which I haven’t used) of running Windows underneath Zen. Of course, my situation is slightly different -- I need Photoshop CS2 in my normal work.

unclesmrgol

dfasdasdasd

The title is a bit misleading - as many have noted. Acer isn’t charging you more. You’re opting for a service that involves YOU paying for shipping both ways.

So, Acer IS really giving back the value is pays for a Windows OEM license. What it is not doing is providing you free shipping for a non-standard support task.

Try to be fair and avoid sensationalist titles.

G Fernandes

There are people who will sell you an OS free laptop in the UK. Novatech is one, but
not the only one. I can’t vouch for the products but they’ve been around awhile and
I have found them a good parts supplier. They also sell you decktops OS free. I live in
hope they, and others will supply with linux installed one day.

Richard.

RPN

Acer is just a cheap, lame laptop vendor. In my opinion, more serious and more professional vendor like Dell can fulfill your wish. I heard they are thinking of shipping Linux preloaded boxes soon. Good thing!

Thomas

I think the car analogies are kind of missing the point... if 95% of cars were manufactured with Dunlop tyres as standard, and you wanted Bridgestone tyres - that would be an appropriate analogy!

Microsoft’s actions with OEM distributions are anti-competitive, and designed to keep a hold on their near-monopoly.

I recently bought an Acer laptop, and they refused to sell it without Windows. It’s now happily running Kubuntu, but I’m certainly not happy that my money went to pay Microsoft for something I never wanted.

Chad

Sorry -- I meant to say, fill out the form (as much as you can) before Acer ships YOU the laptop. Inform them that shipping it with software means that they understand that you are bound by nothing other than copyright laws in terms of what you do with that software and that any shrink-wrap EULA will be null and void.

Stephen Samuel

Try filling out the form BEFORE you ship the laptop to Acer, and have them remove the software after it’s yours, and before they ship it. At that point, all they have to do is ship it to you as they originally would have.

Also send them a second cover letter informing them that if there is any software which requires you to agree with any conditions beyond the legalities of copyright, you are pre-emptively refusing the license and requesting a refund for that software.

The other thing you can do is sue them for tying Windows to the laptop because they are NOT offering to sell you a laptop without Windows, they are selling you a laptop WITH windows, and then forcing you to go through the time and expense of refusing the onerous EULA.

Of course, there’s also the predecessor’s comment that the laptop you’re considering doesn’t support Linux, so you might as well just go buy from Dell HP, or somewhere else that DOES sell a linux-capable laptop.

How about selling the unnecessary Windows copy to someone?

bora

Maybe buy a DELL? I’m very, very happy with my Inspiron 9400 Core Duo and a ATI x1400.

Works on Kubuntu 6.06 and higher with Beryl.

WOW ...... Kubutu rocks!!!!

MoiTju

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